Gun Law
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Concealed Weapons, Open Carry and Tactical-Practical
05/07/08 @ 01:13:00 pm, Categories: Announcements [B], 1336 words   English (US)

There is an open carry association educating law enforcement and the public about the issue of citizens carrying weapons openly, an option that is legal in Washington but not in every situation. Get educated before you strap on a gun and start strutting around in the mall. The idea of “open-carry” gets discussed a lot in some circles. Open carry is a new concept for me but I am trying to approach it with an open mind. Here are some responses from various folks that regularly pack weapons within these United States:

1. No….I don’t open carry except when hunting. In 15 years of carrying, I have always lived in an open carry state. In all that time, I’ve only seen one individual open carrying in public. While there were no comments, I think the fact that he was open carrying went generally un-noticed. Based on my observations, I think there are far fewer who open carry than some would lead us to believe.

Just my opinion, but I firmly believe that open carry removes, or at least reduces your tactical advantage.
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2. I live in TN. and it is legal to open carry here. I don’t think its “desirable’ but it is an exercise of one’s rights. I open carry occasionally. It is a common place thing I’m told in certain parts of the state. I belong to a TN. state forum and it is discussed. Although the general consensus is that it is not prudent. I understand in some states it is common for people to carry openly in bars and courtrooms. My opinion is that open carry is a lot of work and worry about retention and confrontation. But I believe that it is a right.
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3. The Bad Guy is usually just looking for a quick grab and run, he does not want to stick around for any type of confrontation.

This open carry thing to me depends upon your age. If the “Bad Guy” sees someone who is in their 20’s carrying a gun they may tend to think that these people are trying to be a tough guy and want to see just what they will or will not do. If the Bad Guy sees someone about 30 or older they may think twice because of the persons age and possible experience.

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4. Good points. While in public, I do not open carry. I feel open carry takes away my tactical advantage. It can also leave you vulnerable if two or more thugs attempt a take-a-way from different directions. This is hard to defend against.

Why advertise your weapon and make yourself a possible target. I look at CCW like playing poker. Never tip your hand.
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5. “…I’m not going to individually second guess those that choose to open carry where legal. For me however, I prefer to conceal. I guess it’s the submariners motto of “Run Silent, Run Deep.” for me. I know that cultures can vary dramatically from one state to another, but I think that open carry invites some paranoid person to call 911 from a cell phone to report “a man with a gun….”

Also it has the potential to communicate a “vigilante persona” to the antigun folks; especially to the undecided middle-of-the-road persons, who will be turned off as much as fastening you freshly killed deer to the hood of your car as you drive downtown past school zones on your way to the meat processor. It’s legal, just not good ambassadorship. But this is only as I see it.

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“Let your gun be your companion on all your walks.” Thomas Jefferson

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6. I have carried concealed since 1964. My personal choice is to conceal whenever possible but the fact that OC is legal has its advantages as well. I used to ride a motorcycle. My holstered J-Frame would often show outside my jacket at the waist. No big deal.

As for a “grab and go” because of open carry, all the more reason to get a holster that provides proper retention. I carry my Sig today in a Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster. Anyone grabbing my gun will have to take my pants, belt, and holster with the gun. They will also have to figure out how to get my knife out of the back of their hand.
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7. I am still not sure about open carry for myself but it is good to know that I will not be arrested for “intimidating” just because I get out of the car and my shirt is not covering up my 1911 in .45 ACP.

I wear a Milt Sparks holster (the one advertised as having an FBI cant). I cannot remember what the style is but it is IWB and has the option to tuck in the shirt tail and stay concealed (with a slight modification). I carry the 1911 cocked with a round in the chamber (the way it is designed to be carried).

I usually cover it with a jacket, shirt tail, etc. My weapon is a 5″ barrel, solid stainless Kimber Target loaded with Black Talons rounds and Winchester Ranger rounds (230 grain HP). I want to look into 200 Grain federal expanding round nose. I am hearing a great deal of good things about the advantages of RN ammo (not as prone to jams according to the old school thinking).

Hollow points often fail to open up and thus fail to deliver the full punch (i.e., knock down energy) and can continue through the body causing collateral damage as easily as a round point in some cases. For the uninitiated, experts debate such subjects quite a bit and there are more than a few alternative schools of thought. My understanding is that police agencies often use ammunition that fragments when it hits a solid object. This is due to the high potential for liability faced by police departments as a result of deadly force confrontations.

One of my contacts tells me that in order to carry openly it pays to be in very good shape with training in unarmed self-defense and tecniques for preventing someone from disarming you. The possibility that one or more assailants may try to disarm an armed person is very real in view of the fact that the armed individual is normally prevented from legally deploying deadly force until deadly force is presented.

Thus, from a legal stand point and from the standpoint of common sense, open carry is only for certain people and there are many places where it is unwise and illegal. An armed self-defense class like that provided at the Firearms Academy of Seattle and many local ranges is highly recommended for any one that is planning to carry a weapon in public- openly or concealed. The practice and training needs to be ongoing and regular.

See also www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/.
The fact that it is still legal to wear weapons in plain view (in some states) is worth thinking about. It is particularly interesting that people are doing this in some parts of the country even while in other parts of the country and much of the world outside the U.S., people cannot even own a personal firearm.

Incidentally, a guy was charged with intimidation near Federal Way a few years ago and took his case to the Washington State Supreme Court. He had been ambling down Pacific Highway South in the early hours of the morning with an AK-47 slung over his shoulder in plain view, a full clip and a .45 caliber handgun concealed on his hip. The justices held that such a fact pattern constitutes intimidation and upheld the arrest and the statute as written.

Time and place is critical so use your common sense. Send an e-mail with a comment or question to knapp.m@comcast.net if you want the citation to the case. Or send some links to similar legal precedents and we will publish them. I know I would have been looking for cover if I had seen that guy walking down the street!

See http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/.

3 comments | Permalink

Comments:

Comment from: Lonnie Wilson [Visitor] Email · http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55
Mark,

I would point out something about the Spencer case. In that particular case, the SKS rifle was in a low ready, Spencer was walking in an "assaultive manner", and he was NOT carrying a .45ACP in plain view. He was concealing it.

I wish I've communicated the situation here in Washington more often to you but I've been busy with work and life. It happens.

In order to understand the point of RCW 9.41.270, you really need to take a look at the State Archives on HB123 in the 1969 Legislature, the reasons why the law passed in the first place (Black Panther panic), and some of the statements of the House and Senate members when they were debating this law. It's pretty clear from the bill history (amendments that were made in the committee process) that peaceable open carry was not the target of this law.

Consider also that between 1994 and 1997, open carry of a pistol required a Concealed Pistol License, unless a city exempted themselves from the "case and carry" law (sort of a reverse situation of Oregon laws today, where cities can pass loaded firearms bans, which a CHL exempted). 33 out of 39 counties exempted themselves from this law, and it was repealed 3 years later because it was completely ineffective (due to the loaded pistol in car law, I don't know of any open carrier who DOESN'T have a CPL). If the Legislature believed that open carry of a firearm was unlawful under 270, they wouldn't have responded by Seattle Police's whining and complaining that they couldn't arrest someone for open carrying a squirrel rifle slung barrel up in Green Lake Park (The supposed "Green Lake" incident, which turned out apparently never happened in the first place). The case and carry law was part of the 1994 "Violence Prevention Act" which also almost required training to get a CPL (but was defeated by 1 vote in one of the legislative chambers).

Consider also the multitudes of training advisories that have been sent out to officers. I'm sending you the Seattle training bulletin on the subject via email, but that is the latest among dozens of clarifications to officers in the police agencies across this state that "Yes, folks, open carry is legal". That would make a criminal conviction very hard to sustain, if not impossible.
PermalinkPermalink 05/19/08 @ 02:18
Comment from: Lonnie Wilson [Visitor] Email · http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55
One of my contacts tells me that in order to carry openly it pays to be in very good shape with training in unarmed self-defense and tecniques for preventing someone from disarming you. The possibility that one or more assailants may try to disarm an armed person is very real in view of the fact that the armed individual is normally prevented from legally deploying deadly force until deadly force is presented.

Now wait a minute there, Mark. Police officers, who in this state is defined as having LESS self defense rights as private civilians, are taught and told over and over again that anyone attempting to take one's weapon is actually deadly force. Someone tries to take a gun, right off the bat you can pretty much assume that they're going to shoot you or shoot someone else.

Retention training is a good thing, don't get me wrong, but consider a few things. First, police officers (by rules of the department, not necessarily legal requirement) are required to go right into a situation to get into close contact with a possible suspect for detainment, cuffing them, allowing many possible ways of someone trying to take an officer's weapon.

Civilian open carriers are not required to go into a situation like that. They generally try to AVOID situations like that for that reason. I've heard plenty of stories about cops having their guns taken from them and being used against them. I've only heard of ONE incident of a civilian open carrier having that happen, and that was in Virginia about 2 years ago. I also know for a fact that open carry has prevented at least one bank robbery in Virginia, due to the masked men about to go inside and then seeing Dennis Fusaro's (a VCDL executive member) pistol openly carried. If Fusaro was concealed carrying, and he had to pull it out and start actually SHOOTING, there's always the possibility of collateral damage. Instead, the only carried pistol avoided the crime even being committed.
PermalinkPermalink 05/19/08 @ 02:31
Comment from: Lonnie Wilson [Visitor] Email
The fact that it is still legal to wear weapons in plain view (in some states) is worth thinking about. It is particularly interesting that people are doing this in some parts of the country even while in other parts of the country and much of the world outside the U.S., people cannot even own a personal firearm.

It's completely unlawful in 6 states. It's quasi unlawful in states like MD, NJ, MA, HI, IA due to the fact that licensing is required to open or concealed carry, and the license is a may-issue license where every issuing authority would revoke for open carry with no recourse.

I have open carried in the states of Washington and Oregon. I have open carried a pistol in downtown Seattle, specifically Pike Place Market, Volunteer Park, Capitol Hill (the gay/yuppie/urbanaire district), and I've open carried at Seattle Pridefest 2007 at Seattle Center, with lots of people around. Not arrested once. Not even detained. Had the cops follow me but it was worth it for the education of others who came up to me and asked me a lot of good questions, told them how to apply for their CPL, and got a lot of kudos from those who were willing to come up and talk.

If I can open carry a pistol in downtown Seattle without a real serious problem, what does that tell you?
PermalinkPermalink 05/19/08 @ 02:37

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Whether you are facing criminal charges, protection orders or have questions about an old conviction, we hope to raise some issues and find out about the issues that you are facing. Remember that blogs are public so don't divulge confidential information in this or any other blog. You should make an appointment with an attorney for advice related to specific legal issues. Mark Knapp is licensed to give advice and represent you in federal matters and to practice law in Washington State.
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